New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

ree1 wrote:Haha check your sig
DOH! lol, it's because I turned off signatures on the forum so I could never see mine and realize my pathetic error. lol. Thanks, I've corrected it :oops: :bang:
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Le Clue »

NeoSA wrote:Just to back up my statement that I've never seen stock GTi's matching (or even exceeding) the manufacturer claimed power. Here are some past Dyno results:

1 54 Muthe Netshilema VW Golf Mk6 GTI 2000 None Noted 191.1 288 0 13.6kW below claimed
52 39 Wayne Shanmugam VW Golf Mk6 ED35 2.0T None Noted 222.3 325 0 8.5kW below claimed
13 45 Robin Van Der Merwe VW Golf Mk6 2.0T None Noted 206.4 303 0 2.26kW below claimed

None of these cars made the claimed manufacturer claimed power at the wheels. All of them were slightly below, or even way below the claimed flywheel figure when measured at the wheels, and that's 100% expected and normal. Of course VW isn't as bad as Toyta if you remember the whole claimed 147kW RunX debacle a few years ago.

Maybe in first World countries where better quality fuel is the norm and altitude doesn't play such a big role the argument will hold up, but not in SA, not from what I've seen. Sure, they come close to their claimed figures, but I wouldn't call the claimed figures "conservative" compared to what you're actually getting. If you state that the figures VW claims are conservative and always measured at the wheels, you're actually saying that you should, at the very least, see the claimed figures at the wheels - and that's not the case. But I digress, this is not the topic under discussion.
Let me correct you there, manufacturers claimed power is at the flywheel... not at the wheels.

So to be 8.5kw or 2.26kw below claimed FKW when looking at WKW shows you that the power is under rated from the manufacturer which means the FKW is much more than what the manufacturer says.

At the end of the day, a Golf GTI makes more KW and NM than a Focus ST on the wheels which are why they are faster. This is not info from a friend of a friend as you say... it's common knowledge these days as countless of these cars have run on dyno's on the same day and the results were always in favor of the GTI.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Le Clue »

Mk7 Golf GTI:

Image


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And a Focus ST3 (yes this is not at KAR but the same car ran at KAR and made 1wkw more and 11nm)

Image

As you can see 26wkw and 9nm down on the GTI.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

Dude, that's what I'm saying too. But the popular belief is that VW (for some reason) give their power figures at the wheels and are "conservative" with the figures to boot. What you're stating is exactly what I'm trying to say, and that is that the popular belief is false.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by PoLonY »

NeoSA wrote:Dude, that's what I'm saying too. But the popular belief is that VW (for some reason) give their power figures at the wheels and are "conservative" with the figures to boot. What you're stating is exactly what I'm trying to say, and that is that the popular belief is false.
He is not agreeing with you.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by MaX »

PoLonY wrote:
NeoSA wrote:Dude, that's what I'm saying too. But the popular belief is that VW (for some reason) give their power figures at the wheels and are "conservative" with the figures to boot. What you're stating is exactly what I'm trying to say, and that is that the popular belief is false.
He is not agreeing with you.
Dont think he is understanding
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Le Clue »

NeoSA wrote:Dude, that's what I'm saying too. But the popular belief is that VW (for some reason) give their power figures at the wheels and are "conservative" with the figures to boot. What you're stating is exactly what I'm trying to say, and that is that the popular belief is false.
Well the people with that popular believe is not very clued up then.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

Luckily the topic of "wheel power" vs "quoted power" is not under discussion here.

My point remains: VW's (such as GTi's) put power down better simply because of superior suspension and traction system design. There are LOTS of stronger engines than ours. In fact, we have 1.6 liter turbo'ed engines (from Peugeot etc.) that are gaining on 2.0 TSi VAG engines in terms of power figures. So power is definitely not the advantage here.

In short: VW makes use of 99% of the power, whilst other manufacturers claim boat-loads of power, but only manage to actually use 60% of it. It's not just about having loads of power, it's how efficiently you put it to use. Dyno numbers do not equate to real world "robot to robot" performance since things like your suspension system is not being brought into the picture.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Balls »

My stock BWA 5 made 144wkw on Durbans stingiest dyno the day I bought it, then again it was probably as stock as my "stock" 6 that made 187wkw..
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Solo786 »

NeoSA wrote:Luckily the topic of "wheel power" vs "quoted power" is not under discussion here.

My point remains: VW's (such as GTi's) put power down better simply because of superior suspension and traction system design. There are LOTS of stronger engines than ours. In fact, we have 1.6 liter turbo'ed engines (from Peugeot etc.) that are gaining on 2.0 TSi VAG engines in terms of power figures. So power is definitely not the advantage here.

In short: VW makes use of 99% of the power, whilst other manufacturers claim boat-loads of power, but only manage to actually use 60% of it. It's not just about having loads of power, it's how efficiently you put it to use. Dyno numbers do not equate to real world "robot to robot" performance since things like your suspension system is not being brought into the picture.
It still boils down to power/weight and how much power the cars are actually making.. so if a stock gti is making 168wkw and a stock ST makes 140-150 its really a no brainer.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by jippo »

NeoSA wrote:Luckily the topic of "wheel power" vs "quoted power" is not under discussion here.

My point remains: VW's (such as GTi's) put power down better simply because of superior suspension and traction system design. There are LOTS of stronger engines than ours. In fact, we have 1.6 liter turbo'ed engines (from Peugeot etc.) that are gaining on 2.0 TSi VAG engines in terms of power figures. So power is definitely not the advantage here.

In short: VW makes use of 99% of the power, whilst other manufacturers claim boat-loads of power, but only manage to actually use 60% of it. It's not just about having loads of power, it's how efficiently you put it to use. Dyno numbers do not equate to real world "robot to robot" performance since things like your suspension system is not being brought into the picture.
So you're saying VW has 1% drivetrain losses? :lol:
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by jippo »

NeoSA wrote:Dude, that's what I'm saying too. But the popular belief is that VW (for some reason) give their power figures at the wheels and are "conservative" with the figures to boot. What you're stating is exactly what I'm trying to say, and that is that the popular belief is false.
I don't see a single person besides you claiming that VW's power figures are ATW
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

jippo wrote:
NeoSA wrote:Dude, that's what I'm saying too. But the popular belief is that VW (for some reason) give their power figures at the wheels and are "conservative" with the figures to boot. What you're stating is exactly what I'm trying to say, and that is that the popular belief is false.
I don't see a single person besides you claiming that VW's power figures are ATW
Of course you won't. As soon as facts come out, those people keep quiet.

And your statement that I'm claiming the power figures are at the wheel is false. I'm saying some folks say that, and I don't agree with that statement. And here I thought misquoting someone was a talent reserved to IOL reporters.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Stu »

jippo wrote:
NeoSA wrote:Dude, that's what I'm saying too. But the popular belief is that VW (for some reason) give their power figures at the wheels and are "conservative" with the figures to boot. What you're stating is exactly what I'm trying to say, and that is that the popular belief is false.
I don't see a single person besides you claiming that VW's power figures are ATW
no manufacturer gives ATW figures they all Fly wheel at the coast figures.... however the dude writing the brochures has a slight eye sight problem :type: :lol:
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

jippo wrote:
NeoSA wrote:Luckily the topic of "wheel power" vs "quoted power" is not under discussion here.

My point remains: VW's (such as GTi's) put power down better simply because of superior suspension and traction system design. There are LOTS of stronger engines than ours. In fact, we have 1.6 liter turbo'ed engines (from Peugeot etc.) that are gaining on 2.0 TSi VAG engines in terms of power figures. So power is definitely not the advantage here.

In short: VW makes use of 99% of the power, whilst other manufacturers claim boat-loads of power, but only manage to actually use 60% of it. It's not just about having loads of power, it's how efficiently you put it to use. Dyno numbers do not equate to real world "robot to robot" performance since things like your suspension system is not being brought into the picture.
So you're saying VW has 1% drivetrain losses? :lol:
Are you even reading the stuff I'm posting before you reply to it?
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Jet Li »

Le Clue wrote:As Polony said. VW/Audi are making the claimed KW's on the fly at the wheels.. so yes they are conservative with power claims.

To the OP, is that GTI DSG or Manual?
DSG. Both Road Tests are on the CAR Mag website. GTI 7 vs Merc A250 and for Focust ST
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by jippo »

NeoSA wrote:
jippo wrote:
NeoSA wrote:Luckily the topic of "wheel power" vs "quoted power" is not under discussion here.

My point remains: VW's (such as GTi's) put power down better simply because of superior suspension and traction system design. There are LOTS of stronger engines than ours. In fact, we have 1.6 liter turbo'ed engines (from Peugeot etc.) that are gaining on 2.0 TSi VAG engines in terms of power figures. So power is definitely not the advantage here.

In short: VW makes use of 99% of the power, whilst other manufacturers claim boat-loads of power, but only manage to actually use 60% of it. It's not just about having loads of power, it's how efficiently you put it to use. Dyno numbers do not equate to real world "robot to robot" performance since things like your suspension system is not being brought into the picture.
So you're saying VW has 1% drivetrain losses? :lol:
Are you even reading the stuff I'm posting before you reply to it?
Yes I am. See the bold part.
Let's use the figures you supplied vs VWs figures
GTI 6 - (VW) 208hp - (your figures) 206hp - variance (206/208) 1%
ED35 - (VW) 232hp - (your figures) 222hp - variance (222/232) 1%
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

Actually the power figures, as I have it are:

155kW for the Golf 6 GTI which equals 210.7hp
173kW for the Golf 6 GTi ED35 which equals 235.2hp

I don't know where you're getting your stock figures from, but those are the figures quoted by VW in South Africa.

Furthermore, I put it to you, the dyno figures I quoted was from official VWClub SA events. I have not factored in climatic conditions, fuel quality or even the total honesty of the drivers when claiming "no mods done".

However, with all of the dyno figures I could find (once again, from Local VWClub SA events), the "stock" power rating never equates or exceeds the claimed manufacturer power rating.

In one example, a "stock" MK6 GTi made 191hp. That is 19.7hp less than the manufacturer claimed power. Why? Because VW quotes power from the flywheel and not from the wheels. This goes against the popular belief some folks have that VW quotes power at the wheels, and it also goes against the wishful thinking that the rated power is somehow conservative.

You seem to be laboring under the impression that I am defending the opinion that VW is quoting power at the wheels. Please, re-read my posts.

question: when you watch Mythbusters (it's a show on the Discovery channel, very entertaining) - do you think they make up their own myths before trying to prove/disprove them? Or do they listen to what people (in general) say and then try and prove/disprove those claims? You seem to think that the person trying to argue against a certain claim is the same person who made the claim in the first place. That sort of comprehension usually gets people in jail at some point.

The original topic here questions why VW/Audi seems to be faster around a track / robot-to-robot than other cars with much higher power outputs. One opinion was that VW's and Audi's somehow make more power (stock) than what the manufacturer claims, and all I'm saying is that is FALSE. The difference is in power delivery and engineering of OTHER components. Another incorrect observation is to base real-world performance to dyno figures. Why am I saying that? Because a Dyno doesn't bring your suspension or traction systems into consideration.

That's why you can have an Opel OPC / Renault Megane / Focus ST / Lumina SS on the same dyno, making MORE power to the wheels than a GTi, but the GTi will still beat it on a track or going from robot-to-robot.
Last edited by NeoSA on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by jippo »

My maths has failed me. My calculations were wrong.
According to those figures the variance on the GTI is 1%, but on the ED35 it's 4%

I got my HP figures by going to Google and searching for "155kw in hp". I also just double checked now here (http://www.aqua-calc.com/convert/power/ ... horsepower) that 155kw is in fact 208hp

Dude, I think you're misunderstanding what I (and some other people are saying). We're not saying that VW quotes their power at the wheels, we're saying that if your power at the wheels is so close to the manufacturers claimed power at the fly then there's only 2 possible reasons.
1) The drive train losses are tiny! Between 1 and 4% is truly exceptional. They're possibly the only ones able to do this. OR
2) They're lying about the power at the fly - aka stating their power "conservatively"
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by PoLonY »

Except a Focus ST doesn't make more power on the wheels then a GTI stock for stock hence it's slower then said GTI.

/thread.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

@Jippo

Okay cool, I hear what you're saying. Based on your points I agree with what you're saying. VW definitely doesn't over-quote like Toyota and Mazda does (actually to a criminal extent!). But I'm trying my best to stay on the topic here! :lol:

My opinion (and really, it's just that) is that power isn't the answer here. That's why I brought up the example on how a 270kW Lumina SS can be schooled (not by buss lengths, but still) by a 2.0 Turbo engine with much less power, even when compared on a dyno at the same day. Power is absolutely nothing without the right suspension and traction system, and that's why VW/Audi tend to surprise guys in other cars who might make more power.

But thanks, great debate this! +1 Rep to you, sir :)
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

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NeoSA wrote:a Dyno doesn't bring your suspension or traction systems into consideration.
:bang:
The Dyno tells you how much power is being delivered to the wheels. So either the drivetrains are super efficient at power delivery or VW are lying.
You're convinced that VW has drivetrain losses down to under 5%, and I can see there's no way that I'm gonna convince you otherwise.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Le Clue »

PoLonY wrote:Except a Focus ST doesn't make more power on the wheels then a GTI stock for stock hence it's slower then said GTI.

/thread.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by jippo »

NeoSA wrote:@Jippo

Okay cool, I hear what you're saying. Based on your points I agree with what you're saying. VW definitely doesn't over-quote like Toyota and Mazda does (actually to a criminal extent!). But I'm trying my best to stay on the topic here! :lol:

My opinion (and really, it's just that) is that power isn't the answer here. That's why I brought up the example on how a 270kW Lumina SS can be schooled (not by buss lengths, but still) by a 2.0 Turbo engine with much less power, even when compared on a dyno at the same day. Power is absolutely nothing without the right suspension and traction system, and that's why VW/Audi tend to surprise guys in other cars who might make more power.

But thanks, great debate this! +1 Rep to you, sir :)
You're right in saying that power isn't the end of the story, where the debate came in was how much power the GTIs actually make compared to what the manufacturers state.
The big thing that you're missing with the SS though is the power to weight ratio.
But as Polony said, less power at the wheels + weight disadvantage = loss. GTI FTW in TLGP
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by MarshallGTi »

Jet Li wrote:
Le Clue wrote:As Polony said. VW/Audi are making the claimed KW's on the fly at the wheels.. so yes they are conservative with power claims.

To the OP, is that GTI DSG or Manual?
DSG. Both Road Tests are on the CAR Mag website. GTI 7 vs Merc A250 and for Focust ST
Link? i'd like to read that...
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