New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

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New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Jet Li »

The following figures are according to CAR Magazine.

FOCUS ST Vs GTI
Retail Price R353 831,00 Vs R397 600,00
kw 184 Vs 162
Torque 360 Vs 350
Top Speed 248 Vs 244
0-100 6.82s Vs 6,58

What I would like to know is :
1. What does GTI do right to put the power down?
2. How come ST produce so much power but loose out on the road?

Any other insight will help. Thanx
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Le Clue »

Put both cars on a dyno and the GTI makes more power at the wheels. It's a known fact that VW/Audi is very conservative when stating power figures.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by PoLonY »

also DSG vs Manual

and the ST250 is a POS power wise.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by M@rk »

Jet Li wrote:The following figures are according to CAR Magazine.

FOCUS ST Vs GTI
Retail Price R353 831,00 Vs R397 600,00
kw 184 Vs 162
Torque 360 Vs 350
Top Speed 248 Vs 244
0-100 6.82s Vs 6,58

What I would like to know is :
1. What does GTI do right to put the power down?
2. How come ST produce so much power but loose out on the road?

Any other insight will help. Thanx
0.3 sec Not that big difference maybe because the st has more power it makes it difficult to get of the line as the Gti or gear ratio's I don't know .

Is there a comparison from 100-200 Km/h
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Tidy »

is the GTI DSG?

No manual hot hatch will compete with the Golf's DSG in straightline speed, even if its got 30kw+ on the GTI.

My bestest is hearing people say "he really knows how to drive thats why his 1/4 mile times are so good" when refering to a DSG Golf :bang:
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by crumbs »

Tidy wrote:is the GTI DSG?

No manual hot hatch will compete with the Golf's DSG in straightline speed, even if its got 30kw+ on the GTI.

My bestest is hearing people say "he really knows how to drive thats why his 1/4 mile times are so good" when refering to a DSG Golf :bang:
DSG isnt all about flatfoot and go.... the right launch and revs plays a big role :driving:
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by jippo »

crumbs wrote:
Tidy wrote:is the GTI DSG?

No manual hot hatch will compete with the Golf's DSG in straightline speed, even if its got 30kw+ on the GTI.

My bestest is hearing people say "he really knows how to drive thats why his 1/4 mile times are so good" when refering to a DSG Golf :bang:
DSG isnt all about flatfoot and go.... the right launch and revs plays a big role :driving:
Same goes for a manual. But when I ran my friend's 7 GTI, I could see gaps opening on shifts, especially 1 to 2
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Stu »

face it the dsg is helping a cr@p load between shifts
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

This whole "audi/vw is consertvative with power figures" has never stood up. All of the dyno results I've seen from many, many GTis have had their power figures very close to the 155kW / 162kW manufacturer claim. Almost always a little below due to drive-train loss. So you're not going to get a stock 180wkw GTi any time soon. That's for damn sure.

I believe the difference comes in from overall engineering. Look at the Opel Astra OPC. That's 208kW and it loses most of the straight line speed tests against cars with much less rated power than it has. Put the cars on a dyno and the OPC will more than likely show that it has more power. So, the benefit comes with engineering of other components such as suspension and traction setup. When it comes to VW and Audi (and Porsche and Lamborghini etc.....) they have much better suspension and traction systems available than Opel or Ford. Maybe they can also afford to put those systems in place for their mass production cars, whereas Ford and Opel might not have that luxury. (Hell, Opel almost closed their doors for good recently).

Now look at the Ford Focus RS. That thing puts power down VERY well. Why is it so different to the Focus ST then? Because the RS model is made in limited quantities, costs far more and they can afford to give it the components it deserves to put the power down.

Getting a powerful engine into a car is easy these days. It's the stuff around the engine which costs the manufacturer the REAL bucks. Manufacturers know this because most people only look at "poweeeerrrrr" figures and buy the car based on that. Meanwhile, everything around the engine has been through a massive cost-cutting exercise which renders all that power useless.

My BEST example of that are these 2007/8 Chevrolet Lumina SS V8s. Those things have HUUUGE power ratings, but my GTi absolutely obliterates them from robot to robot. Why? Because "too much engine" for the suspension and traction systems they have.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by PoLonY »

NeoSA wrote:This whole "audi/vw is consertvative with power figures" has never stood up. All of the dyno results I've seen from many, many GTis have had their power figures very close to the 155kW / 162kW manufacturer claim. Almost always a little below due to drive-train loss. So you're not going to get a stock 180wkw GTi any time soon. That's for damn sure.

I believe the difference comes in from overall engineering. Look at the Opel Astra OPC. That's 208kW and it loses most of the straight line speed tests against cars with much less rated power than it has. Put the cars on a dyno and the OPC will more than likely show that it has more power. So, the benefit comes with engineering of other components such as suspension and traction setup. When it comes to VW and Audi (and Porsche and Lamborghini etc.....) they have much better suspension and traction systems available than Opel or Ford. Maybe they can also afford to put those systems in place for their mass production cars, whereas Ford and Opel might not have that luxury. (Hell, Opel almost closed their doors for good recently).

Now look at the Ford Focus RS. That thing puts power down VERY well. Why is it so different to the Focus ST then? Because the RS model is made in limited quantities, costs far more and they can afford to give it the components it deserves to put the power down.

Getting a powerful engine into a car is easy these days. It's the stuff around the engine which costs the manufacturer the REAL bucks. Manufacturers know this because most people only look at "poweeeerrrrr" figures and buy the car based on that. Meanwhile, everything around the engine has been through a massive cost-cutting exercise which renders all that power useless.

My BEST example of that are these 2007/8 Chevrolet Lumina SS V8s. Those things have HUUUGE power ratings, but my GTi absolutely obliterates them from robot to robot. Why? Because "too much engine" for the suspension and traction systems they have.
GTI's make their quoted flywheel power at the wheels, hence people saying they are conservative with power claims

So VW quotes them at 162FKW and they make that on the wheels even after drivetrain losses, therefore they must be making around 180FKW in reality to reach those figures.

Else VW has found a gearbox that gives 0% drivetrain loss :lol:

As for the lumina SS you do realise NA at the reef is 17% down on flywheel power just from altitude?

So 270fkw -17% = 224fkw then power train loss of 15-20% = 190wkw in a very heavy body. So a well sorted 170-180wkw GTI can easily keep up.

They don't have enough engine in fact :lol:
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Le Clue »

As Polony said. VW/Audi are making the claimed KW's on the fly at the wheels.. so yes they are conservative with power claims.

To the OP, is that GTI DSG or Manual?
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Stu »

PoLonY wrote:
NeoSA wrote:This whole "audi/vw is consertvative with power figures" has never stood up. All of the dyno results I've seen from many, many GTis have had their power figures very close to the 155kW / 162kW manufacturer claim. Almost always a little below due to drive-train loss. So you're not going to get a stock 180wkw GTi any time soon. That's for damn sure.

I believe the difference comes in from overall engineering. Look at the Opel Astra OPC. That's 208kW and it loses most of the straight line speed tests against cars with much less rated power than it has. Put the cars on a dyno and the OPC will more than likely show that it has more power. So, the benefit comes with engineering of other components such as suspension and traction setup. When it comes to VW and Audi (and Porsche and Lamborghini etc.....) they have much better suspension and traction systems available than Opel or Ford. Maybe they can also afford to put those systems in place for their mass production cars, whereas Ford and Opel might not have that luxury. (Hell, Opel almost closed their doors for good recently).

Now look at the Ford Focus RS. That thing puts power down VERY well. Why is it so different to the Focus ST then? Because the RS model is made in limited quantities, costs far more and they can afford to give it the components it deserves to put the power down.

Getting a powerful engine into a car is easy these days. It's the stuff around the engine which costs the manufacturer the REAL bucks. Manufacturers know this because most people only look at "poweeeerrrrr" figures and buy the car based on that. Meanwhile, everything around the engine has been through a massive cost-cutting exercise which renders all that power useless.

My BEST example of that are these 2007/8 Chevrolet Lumina SS V8s. Those things have HUUUGE power ratings, but my GTi absolutely obliterates them from robot to robot. Why? Because "too much engine" for the suspension and traction systems they have.
GTI's make their quoted flywheel power at the wheels, hence people saying they are conservative with power claims

So VW quotes them at 162FKW and they make that on the wheels even after drivetrain losses, therefore they must be making around 180FKW in reality to reach those figures.

Else VW has found a gearbox that gives 0% drivetrain loss :lol:

As for the lumina SS you do realise NA at the reef is 17% down on flywheel power just from altitude?

So 270fkw -17% = 224fkw then power train loss of 15-20% = 190wkw in a very heavy body. So a well sorted 170-180wkw GTI can easily keep up.

They don't have enough engine in fact :lol:

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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Dyl »

my friends stock ST made 130.8 wkw at KAR he got rid of it immediately and bought a 7 gti which made 168wkw at KAR.
another fully loaded stage 2 ST made 163wkw at KAR :shock:

GTI FTW :cool:
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Le Clue »

And to add NeoSA, a stock Focus ST has been put on a dyno and a stock Mk7 GTI on the same dyno...guess what? The GTI made more power. I have heard rumors that the reason for this is VW/Audi tests power ratings and high altitude and high temperature so that in extreme situations they can deliver on their promise of KW's and NM's.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by DangerBoy »

In before Pitzi... :popcorn:
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

Just personal experience reading the Dyno day results (I love those). And I've not seen an event where a guy with a stock GTi makes the quoted power figures at the wheels. It's always some "friend of a friend" and "this one oke I saw one day..." that somehow made those numbers. How big was the fish?

I'm not fighting, just stating that I believe the reason why some German cars like Audi and VW put power down better has nothing to do with more power at the wheels, but more to do with how everything else has been designed.

And before people get Pitzi to come shout at me; I'm just stating what I've experienced myself. I've had about 2 incidents with guys in older model Lumina SS', and on both occasions I walked them. I am fully aware of the power loss at altitude, but if you keep the power figures in mind (Power Output: 270kw@5700, Torque: 530nm@4400) you have to agree that it does not manage to put the power down properly. Altitude has nothing to do with it. My car makes less than 180wkw, so I doubt that it would lose 90kW because of Gauteng altitude.

It comes down to overall design and engineering. You have to mate power WITH traction. And the VAG brand does it a lot better than most.
Last edited by NeoSA on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by Stu »

what does each gear change on a manual car cost on a 1/4m maybe 0.3-0.5 of a Sec of which most cars do around 3 changes
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by ree1 »

NeoSA wrote:Just personal experience reading the Dyno day results (I love those). And I've not seen an event where a guy with a stock GTi makes the quoted power figures at the wheels. It's always some "friend of a friend" and "this one oke I saw one day..." that somehow made those numbers. How big was the fish?

I'm not fighting, just stating that I believe the reason why some German cars like Audi and VW put power down better has nothing to do with more power at the wheels, but more to do with how everything else has been designed.
:!offtopic:

is swissvax your care care company :lol:
[url=http://vwclub.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php ... 0#p1872034]

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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by PoLonY »

Stu wrote:what does each gear change on a manual car cost on a 1/4m maybe 0.3-0.5 of a Sec of which most cars do around 3 changes
depends, you granny shifting or double clutching like you should?
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

ree1 wrote: is swissvax your care care company :lol:
No it isn't. But it's a brand that people need to be made more aware of.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by ree1 »

Image

they put the care in care
[url=http://vwclub.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php ... 0#p1872034]

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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by PoLonY »

ree1 wrote:Image

they put the care in care
:lol:
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

Just to back up my statement that I've never seen stock GTi's matching (or even exceeding) the manufacturer claimed power. Here are some past Dyno results:

1 54 Muthe Netshilema VW Golf Mk6 GTI 2000 None Noted 191.1 288 0 13.6kW below claimed
52 39 Wayne Shanmugam VW Golf Mk6 ED35 2.0T None Noted 222.3 325 0 8.5kW below claimed
13 45 Robin Van Der Merwe VW Golf Mk6 2.0T None Noted 206.4 303 0 2.26kW below claimed

None of these cars made the claimed manufacturer claimed power at the wheels. All of them were slightly below, or even way below the claimed flywheel figure when measured at the wheels, and that's 100% expected and normal. Of course VW isn't as bad as Toyta if you remember the whole claimed 147kW RunX debacle a few years ago.

Maybe in first World countries where better quality fuel is the norm and altitude doesn't play such a big role the argument will hold up, but not in SA, not from what I've seen. Sure, they come close to their claimed figures, but I wouldn't call the claimed figures "conservative" compared to what you're actually getting. If you state that the figures VW claims are conservative and always measured at the wheels, you're actually saying that you should, at the very least, see the claimed figures at the wheels - and that's not the case. But I digress, this is not the topic under discussion.
Last edited by NeoSA on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by NeoSA »

PoLonY wrote:
ree1 wrote:Image

they put the care in care
:lol:
I have to be honest with you guys, I don't get that joke. Maybe it's a bit too dry for a Tuesday?

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Re: New Focus ST vs GTI 7 perfomance

Post by ree1 »

Haha check your sig
[url=http://vwclub.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php ... 0#p1872034]

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