ABF HELP NEEDED

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Polla
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ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by Polla »

Good day. My name is Paul. Im a new member and its my first post.

I recently bought a project citi golf with a 2.0 8v AAG motor which had the carb conversion done. I also bought a 2.1 ABF motor with a few mods on it which I've been told.
Tdi crank
Vanderlinde Head
276/288 cams
Bmw pistons

The motor does not have any intake or throttles on it. I need assistance as to know what I have. Is it a turbo build or normally aspirated?

If aspirated, do I go with throttles or try and find a intake and management system?

Is there a mechanic in the Johannesburg West Rand area that is reasonably priced that would assist me to get the ABF up and running. I have a tight budget and wouldn't mind second hand part to complete the build. The current AAG needs to be removed. I would assume that parts can be used like the altenator, radiator, started etc.

Your assistance would be appreciated.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by PapaJo »

You can use the engine mounts, clutch and pressure plate, starter, alternator and radiator you currently have as it can bolt to the ABF motor.

Seeing that the ABF has some work done and 2.1, I would recommend getting throttles fitted. Note you will have some restricted space for throttle ram tube lengths, alter water pipe routing from front of head to side of head as the front water outlet on head will not clear on itb manifold unless you use the adaptor plate from Sarel 8v performance and vacuum block from the toyota itb’s. You may need to change alternator fitment to a lower bracket depending on what you have now to create clearance between alternator and itb’s.

You will need an aftermarket management fitted on the ABF either way you are going, throttles or std intake for the injectors and fit a high pressure fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator. ABF has a 60-2 trigger wheel in the block for timing and you will need an aftermarket ecu (like Dicktator) that can do 60-2 trigger for ignition. As alternative you can use a standard Dicktator ecu that uses the distributor trigger, but then you need to alter the ABF distributor from a single window to a 4 window unit or source a distributor from a 16v KR or 9A motor that uses a 4 window distributor.

Ecu (+_4k), fuel pump and pressure regulator(+_3k), itb’s(+_3kto4k), itb manifold or adaptor plate (+_3-4k), injectors (anywhere from 1k to 4k depending on make and size of injectors and new or second hand), fuel hose abd clamps, fuel filter, etc are counting up the monies very fast and adding up to close to a 16k to 20k budget if done right and that is main parts only excluding labour doing work yourself. Not cheap at all.

Check out my build for some info:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=115075&start=1950

PM me your number and I can add you whatsapp if you need to chat or you can ask here and I will reply.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by PapaJo »

Sorry for the long previous post and adding to previous post, you need a decent branch too. Expect to pay 2k to 2,5 for one.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by Polla »

Thanks very much. I didnt think about half of those things you mentioned. Obviously a lot more than what I thought. Will it all be worth it though? What can I expect once all of that is done? How does that compare to a turbo build? Financially and practically?
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

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Polla wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:32 am Thanks very much. I didnt think about half of those things you mentioned. Obviously a lot more than what I thought. Will it all be worth it though? What can I expect once all of that is done? How does that compare to a turbo build? Financially and practically?
You need to at least double your budget ( from my previous post estimates) for a turbo build to start off with.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by missioner »

By the description you have of your motor, I reckon you may have an ethanol motor.

Throttles are the way to go in this case, as PapaJo said.

Before starting with this build get the motor measured, compression tested to determine the compression ratio. Over 11:1 and you will battle running pump fuel.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by DotDubb »

I have a 2.1 16v on throttles and I must say it's a demon monster of a car. Sarel from 8v Performance 082 970 5478 built and fitted my engine.
I would suggest giving him a call, he stocks everything that you will need to get the car finished.

To build a setup like you have from scratch is a good R70k from start to finish and will give most cars on the road a hiding, including turbo cars. Finish your build and start a build thread on the forum.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by panic-mechanic »

a turbo build will be in excess of R90k. I have price one recently for somebody.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by missioner »

Just to add.

If you wanted to go the turbo route, the motor you have would probably have to be rebuilt to suit a turbo, in other words all the effort already put into it as a strong N/A motor is completely the opposite of how a turbo motor is built.

Many of the parts installed would actually be a hindrance in a turbo motor and end up being changed out for stock or turbo specific items.

I'm ignoring your statement regarding budget in this post to explore the theoretical use of your existing motor in a turbo application. You see taking a built N/A motor and changing it to suit a turbocharger is an exercise in folly, heres why.....

TDi crank: longer stroke vs stock by 5mm. Increase in compression ratio which improves power and torque in an N/A motor. Increased propensity to predetonate if tuned lean or fueled by lower octane pump gas.

Vanderlinde custom cylinder head. I have seen this man's work and it is really impressive. Decreased combustion bowl size and reshaped to concentrate the air fuel mixture at the spark plug, makes for good gains in N/A engines. This further increases the static compression ratio of the motor.

Longer duration camshafts. These have the effect of reducing the compression of the motor at low RPM's, making it easier to do things like start. They also improve the flow of gasses through the motor at high revs. This also moves the power band further up in the process, increasing the engines usable RPM range, provided its built to handle those revs. This is awesome in racing applications where it helps to be able to hold a gear a little longer than your competitors and gives you an acceleration advantage over them.
In a turbo motor these cams would cause huge lag, below their "sweet spot" the gas flow is not enough to get the turbo going properly. Once the cam reaches the RPM range it was designed to work at, the turbo will come on nice and strong, which is great. The not so great part is most performance camshafts only start to work right after 4000RPM. Ideally one would like to have boost pressure increase gradually with around 80% of peak boost available at 3500RPM, and then peaking at around 5500 to 6000 revs. Generally stock cams are best suited to do this.

I hope I have helped by explaining the differences somewhat, but

TLDR it's already built for N/A, use it as is. If your heart says it must be turbo'ed then go buy a turbo motor and sell the one you have.

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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by PapaJo »

Post some pictures of the ABF motor.

Did you check with the seller if this motor was build for ethanol or methanol and what is the compression ratio on this motor?
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by missioner »

No reply from the OP.

Hopefully he's too busy swapping engines and supporting mods to be playing with his internet.

As long as he takes pictures I will forgive him. Lol
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by PapaJo »

missioner wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:44 am No reply from the OP.

Hopefully he's too busy swapping engines and supporting mods to be playing with his internet.

As long as he takes pictures I will forgive him. Lol
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by Polla »

Hi guys. Sorry was in Botswana for a few days. I went through all your posts and comments and appreciate all the assistance. I went to 8v performance and we are definitely going the N/A route. Was supposed to collect the motor this past weekend, but was not available to do so. Had a chat to a guy at 8v and we also discussed some pricing amd timelines. Will definitely keep you guys posted. I've been in touch with some people of this forum and we have managed to source some parts for the build also.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by PapaJo »

Polla wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:19 am Hi guys. Sorry was in Botswana for a few days. I went through all your posts and comments and appreciate all the assistance. I went to 8v performance and we are definitely going the N/A route. Was supposed to collect the motor this past weekend, but was not available to do so. Had a chat to a guy at 8v and we also discussed some pricing amd timelines. Will definitely keep you guys posted. I've been in touch with some people of this forum and we have managed to source some parts for the build also.
Keep us posted.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by missioner »

Polla wrote:Hi guys. Sorry was in Botswana for a few days. I went through all your posts and comments and appreciate all the assistance. I went to 8v performance and we are definitely going the N/A route. Was supposed to collect the motor this past weekend, but was not available to do so. Had a chat to a guy at 8v and we also discussed some pricing amd timelines. Will definitely keep you guys posted. I've been in touch with some people of this forum and we have managed to source some parts for the build also.
Nice, keep up the good work
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by Polla »

Hi guys. Some feedback. So I got the car this past weekend. Didn't collect the motor as the trailer didnt have space and its at a different location. Will probably make a plan this weekend.

Anyway, so the car is in slightly worse condition than what I remembered. Not wanting to do a complete rebuild (which is probably what it needs) and I was thinking. Do you sort out the bodywork first and then move over to mechanical?

The wiring and dash is a mess. I sort of knew that, but did get a velocity dash with. Read a few posts where guys say its a nightmare to do the conversion. That put me off a bit and I'm thinking of sourcing a stock dash somewhere and put that in rather. Need a driver door and a bonnet. Carpets and rear seats will come out and most likely the bumpers also. Keep it as simple as possible. Car is painted white. Probably needs a repaint in the future, but not now. Finding a white door and bonnet will be fantastic. Any ideas?

Once I get the new motor I will start removing the old 2.0 8v and putting parts over onto the abf. I think once that is done can I get a mechanic like 8v performance to do the throttles and diktator.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by PapaJo »

I would do mechanical stuff and sort out wiring first. Much easier to work around engine bay and wiring harness without a motor in engine bay.

Velo dash can be done, but needs lots off time and patience.

If you do decide on it, there will be no turning back as you need to cut off the brackets for the old square dash, modify the bracket holding the steering column, need to fit the Velo heater box, brake booster and links to pedal and steering column. The old spec heater box and steering column does not fit in new spec dash.

Been there, done that and got the t-shirt.

You basically need a full Velo dash with wiring, fuse box, heater box and controls, ecu and the boardnetz board and then just splice in the rear existing wiring unless you get that aswell. Velo dash and cluster uses a pulse type speedo gear drive in gearbox (it does fit in 020 gearbox) and not cable like the old spec dash.

On top of that, you will need to get the box decoded to use another key and ignition or you will not get it to start at all. No power from ignition passing power to other circuits. You can get it started with wiring on Dicktator, but rest of functions Will need some magic.

If you can’t find a decent second hand square dash, Sarel 8v was advertising fiberglass moulded ones - because racecar.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by PapaJo »

Another thing to add if you are going new spec Velo dash. The old spec window winders sits more forward than the new spec door ones and you will only be able to wind windows up or down when doors are open, unless you convert to electric windows.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by missioner »

I was watching a YouTube video of one of my favorite channels, MotionAutoTV, and Trevor was talking about slippery slopes with regards to his K swapped AWD Civic EK.

One mod leads to another, that leads to more work to support the first mods and so on. After all said and done you could have bought a car with all the parts factory installed with the money spent on the "Project Car".

The Velo dash is one of those slopes.

Let's say you installed the dash, then get irritated with the window handles. The solution is late model front doors with one piece window glass. Yay doors fitted windows work excellent. Now the rest of the interior is old and crappy, suddenly you are buying a donor car to swap all the interior parts over, including the black hood lining.

A year or 2 later you are getting a divorce because your wife is tired of living in a scrap yard for Citi Golfs.

You see slippery slopes.
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Re: ABF HELP NEEDED

Post by PapaJo »

missioner wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:49 am I was watching a YouTube video of one of my favorite channels, MotionAutoTV, and Trevor was talking about slippery slopes with regards to his K swapped AWD Civic EK.

One mod leads to another, that leads to more work to support the first mods and so on. After all said and done you could have bought a car with all the parts factory installed with the money spent on the "Project Car".

The Velo dash is one of those slopes.

Let's say you installed the dash, then get irritated with the window handles. The solution is late model front doors with one piece window glass. Yay doors fitted windows work excellent. Now the rest of the interior is old and crappy, suddenly you are buying a donor car to swap all the interior parts over, including the black hood lining.

A year or 2 later you are getting a divorce because your wife is tired of living in a scrap yard for Citi Golfs.

You see slippery slopes.
Budget 6-7k just for the 2 full window door shells from VW, then add on the two mirrors, window glass and window winders, door locks and handles, all the door rubbers and then make your own door cards for about 1k. Two Velo door cards from VW will cot you around 2,6k. If you are extremely lucky, you can maybe find these new spec doors at a scrapyard for 5-7k each as complete units.

Keep counting the monies.
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