8v block and 16v or 20v head?

SpoedNick
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8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by SpoedNick »

Please guys tell me why on earth you would want to put a 16v or 20 valve head on a 8v block? These 16v and 20v heads are 3 times the price in standard form, never mined when you start upgraing the internals. Maybe go 16v if you putting turbo, What has happened to the x flow 8v craze? Im just wondering whats the hype and why spend so much money and time getting the head to fit and not even having such great gain from these 16v or 20v heads. If any one could pls help i would appreciate it :crazy:
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by BlueBlob »

HP. 16V and 20V make more than 8V. If it doesn't, you've done something wrong.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by SpoedNick »

Is it worth the price though for the extra 3kw you will gain in the NA cars? I dont want to do it but i get alot of guys asking me for 16v and 20v heads that cost the earth.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by panic-mechanic »

if you only gain 3 kw you are really doing it wrong...
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by SpoedNick »

tell me how much you would gain on a golf gti 8v by putting a stock 16v head on?
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by BlueBlob »

SpoedNick wrote:tell me how much you would gain on a golf gti 8v by putting a stock 16v head on?
Ok, let's look at the way VW did it.

8V GTi made what, 88kw? 16V GTi in the same car, made 115kw.

Big enough gain for you?
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by panic-mechanic »

Well you shouldn't do that. Just buy a complete 16v motor. They are usually already over 15 kw more. a correctly tuned ABF will make 125hp + on the wheels in JHB where the 2l 8v will only manage about 98 if you are lucky. Both in stock form of course.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by SpoedNick »

yap i know the diff in power in stock form, but fitting a 16v head to a 8v block how much will some one wanting to do this gain? Im guessing not much at all. And what about the guys wanting 20v heads for 8v motor?
Last edited by SpoedNick on Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by BlueBlob »

SpoedNick wrote:yap i know the diff in power in stock form, but fitting a 16v head to a 8v block how much will some one wanting to do this gain?
You will gain the same. The 16V ABF is pretty much the exact same bottom-end as the 8V ADY.

So, take an ADY block, stick a 16V head on it (with 16V pistons, obviously), and you gain plenty.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by joggiep »

SpoedNick wrote:yap i know the diff in power in stock form, but fitting a 16v head to a 8v block how much will some one wanting to do this gain? Im guessing not much at all. And what about the guys wanting 20v heads for 8v motor?
Start reading the post again from the top you already have your answer.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by panic-mechanic »

If you simply fit it stock to a 8v motor you drop the CR to around 8.5:1 hence there will be very little gain. To actually get to the same a a genuine 16v you have to use the right pistons to get your CR to 10:1 if you don't do that your gains will be very little. If you use the 8v pistons then you are gearing up for turbo and they make MUCH more power.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by Vinnige Fanie »

Sorry to highjack but if you fit a kr head to a ady block where does the head breathe?Do you need to modify something?
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by BlueBlob »

Vinnige Fanie wrote:Sorry to highjack but if you fit a kr head to a ady block where does the head breathe?Do you need to modify something?
One of two options:

1. No breather on head. Not really a problem.
2. The 20V's have a sandwhich plate thing between tappet cover and filler cap with a breather pipe outlet. This fits on a 16V.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by panic-mechanic »

ADY/2E etc. and all the modern motors have a block breather. No breather needed on the head. It's a problem when you put it on one of the old motors like EV or HM or such and I don't like to do it on theose either becuase you forever have a breathing issue.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by SpoedNick »

panic-mechanic wrote:If you simply fit it stock to a 8v motor you drop the CR to around 8.5:1 hence there will be very little gain. To actually get to the same a a genuine 16v you have to use the right pistons to get your CR to 10:1 if you don't do that your gains will be very little. If you use the 8v pistons then you are gearing up for turbo and they make MUCH more power.

Ok cool so the pistons must be replaced for the 16v head to work properly. Once you have done that will you get the 115kw then with a stock 16v head on the 8v block? is that all the mods one must make to get the motor running? Do all the oil channels mach up? :type:
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by Wit Ark »

So basically what this boils down to is i can put on a 16V head on my ADY bottom and only change the pistons and then it will basically be as good as a ABF motor? Let say i plan to add boost, then i only need the 16V head as the compression will already be lowered with the head swop when keeping my stock 8V pistons?

What about the timing belt/chain etc? As far as i know 8V uses a belt and 16V uses a chain, plz correct me if i am wrong or missing something, but what this means is i need to cet new timing belt pulleys/gears as well?
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by panic-mechanic »

The head will bolt straight on yes but sadly that is not the end of the changes besides the pistons. You have to change all the pulleys on the cambelt side as they are different. The 16v intermediate shaft is different. It doesn't have the dizzy in the block either so has a blanker and an oil drive gear there. Also the oil pump is different. There are quite a few differences which is why I said in the first place - buy a complete 16v in the first place instead of modding to one. The only reason I use the 8v longblock with 16v head to bulid turbo motors is becuase it's the right bottom end and at that point is cheaper than buying a 16v and modding it for low compression. To build an N/A 16v from an 8v motor makes no economical sense...
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by panic-mechanic »

The exhaust cam is driven by a single pulley on the front of the motor that is wider than the 8v belt and has a different tooth pattern. The exhaust cam then drives the intake cam via a short chain on the other side.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by Wit Ark »

Point taken, so items that need to be changed includes the timing gear and pulleys as well as the intermediate shaft to run the oil pump, what about the oil pump itself? do you then still use the stock 8V oil pump or must this be changed to a 16V unit as well? I once saw a simmilar con that a friend did, he basically had a new 16V oil pump on his 8V block, however he changed the shaft of the oil pump(16V) and placed back the 8V shaft, but with the 16V gears on them to make it fit. Is this what needs to happen?

Will the stock 8V branch fit onto the 16V head as well? What about the intake and injectors?
Sorry i am hijacking this threat now, but i think the info discussed here will further answer the inittial questions and give us all a better understanding of what a 8V to 16V conversion beholds.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by SpoedNick »

Panic machanic then you agree with me that it is complete waste of money doing this conversion to a 8v motor that is going to be a NA car. What i always tell the guys rather keep your 8v motor as is and get a gas flowed head or xflow head. then all you need is a decent camshaft lifters and springs and your good to make very nice power. easy 120kw down here at the reef :cool:
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by SpoedNick »

Will the stock 8V branch fit onto the 16V head as well? What about the intake and injectors?
Sorry i am hijacking this threat now, but i think the info discussed here will further answer the inittial questions and give us all a better understanding of what a 8V to 16V conversion beholds.[/quote]





Agreed!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by panic-mechanic »

No manifolds are totally different. Which injectors are you talking about. K-Jet?. Yes the injector will fit but the plumbing won't then if you have the right plumbing it won't fit the injector thread. There were the very late mk2 8v GTI that had the same injectors.
The 16v oil pump has a shaft with a spline drive where the 8v shaft has a pin drive that goes into the bottom of the dissy.
You could leave the 8v dissy sitting there with the 8v pump and modify the shaft to accept the 16v drive pulley.
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by Jet Li »

panic-mechanic wrote:The head will bolt straight on yes but sadly that is not the end of the changes besides the pistons. You have to change all the pulleys on the cambelt side as they are different. The 16v intermediate shaft is different. It doesn't have the dizzy in the block either so has a blanker and an oil drive gear there. Also the oil pump is different. There are quite a few differences which is why I said in the first place - buy a complete 16v in the first place instead of modding to one. The only reason I use the 8v longblock with 16v head to bulid turbo motors is becuase it's the right bottom end and at that point is cheaper than buying a 16v and modding it for low compression. To build an N/A 16v from an 8v motor makes no economical sense...
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by Jude »

panic-mechanic wrote:ADY/2E etc. and all the modern motors have a block breather. No breather needed on the head. It's a problem when you put it on one of the old motors like EV or HM or such and I don't like to do it on these either becuase you forever have a breathing issue.
Hi guys , I know this is an old thread but have been reading through it and have a few questions.

Panic how would you resolve the breathing issue on an old EV motor?

Scenario here, old Jetta 2 EV 1.8 ClI 8 valve with K.Jet
Would it be better to just take the head in for a good overall like g.flow, cam, springs new valves etc and put a set of side drafts on it.


:thumbup:
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Re: 8v block and 16v or 20v head?

Post by panic-mechanic »

You actually don't really. There is a breather extension that you can put between the cap and the tappet cover but they forever have breathing issues. I also prefer to use the blocks with oil squirters for the pistons which means the later stuff or original 16v blocks.
It really depends on what you like and what hp you want but yes a nice flowed head with good cam and sideys was always a good way to have a lot of fun.
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