MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's not?

VAG Fan
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MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's not?

Post by VAG Fan »

I would like to get an idea of "normal" signs of ageing on a dual mass flywheel (DMF). What can be tolerated, and at which point should I take action?

1) When my AHF is hot and I switch it off, the DMF makes a short, clacking sound on the last compression stroke, as the engine comes to a final stop. "ka-clack". Stephan (panic) mentioned that this is well-known, and in itself, no cause for alarm. Sometimes it goes on for years before the DMF actually fails.
2) During idling and driving, there used to be absolutely no noise, so I wasn't worried.
3) BUT, lately, when the engine is warming up and I accelerate moderately, like pulling away from a light in normal traffic, sometimes I get a single "clack" from the DMF. This happens only during warm-up, not once the engine is warm.

I'm wondering about no. (3). When I hear the "clack", I feel absolutely no jerking, so I doubt the engine is actually misfiring. But I'm not sure whether the springs in the DMF are "masking" a misfire? Or is my engine firing normally, and the "clack" is simply the springs of the DMF becoming too weak to cushion the shock?

Does anyone know these symptoms, and can you tell me at which point I should take any action?
If I replace the flywheel, I would probably stay with a dual mass, even though it's horribly expensive.

Mileage: about 213k
Clutch is original and still in excellent working condition, although the pressure plate is dry, resulting in a hard and creaky pedal operation.
Mark R.
- - - - - - - - - -
2004 VW Golf TDI, type 1J, AHF, 317k (2016-current) --- daily
1990 VW Fox, type 16, HM, 304k (2005-current) --- spare runaround
Previous:
1992 Audi 500 SE, type C4, AAR (2001-2020) --- nice while it lasted
1983 VW Golf GTS, type 17, FR (1992-2005) --- most fun car I've ever had
1978 Audi 100 GLS 5E, type 43, WC (1991-92) --- died in the side of a Rekord who cut me off
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by Killerwatt »

It seems like the springs within the dmf are a little on the soft side. I wouldn't say it has failed but its definitely showing signs of age.
I would look at pricing on a flywheel and clutch just as a preventative measure.

It would be unlikely that it's a misfire only when you leave the clutch. maybe check out the engine and gearbox mounts for signs of wear as well.

The creaky pedal is most likely the pedal bushing. Also early mk4s are known for clutch pedal failure. A quick google search will point you in the right direction.
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by VAG Fan »

Thanks, killerwatt. Yes, I'll make some enquiries re. DMF and clutch kit. At 12 years and 213k km, I'm not complaining too much. Especially since the car is shaving off R700+ off my monthly fuel bill compared to what I was driving previously.

But just to clarify:

I'm not sure what you mean by "only when you leave the clutch". The only time I ever hear the "clack" noise, is with the clutch fully engaged (i.e. foot off the pedal) and moderately accelerating through 1st, 2nd or 3rd gear. Mostly, I hear it in 2nd, as torque starts to build around 1800 to 2000 rpm, with the engine temp. still at about 70. (Really not driving hard; the accelerator is maybe 1/4 or 1/3 down.)

Hence I was wondering whether a Diesel could misfire under (moderate) load, but not under idle. But I also think it's improbable. The engine starts immediately, cold or hot, and is really running very, very smoothly.

In terms of mounts: the moment the engine fires, there is a bit of a thud coming through the chassis. But visually, it doesn't seem to shake abnormally when starting or shutting off. I've seen all sorts of TDIs do that, even brand-new ones... But anyhow, worn mounts shouldn't have anything to do with DMF noise, should they?

The clutch creak is definitely outside, i.e. in the engine bay, not inside the passenger compartment. Inside the car, I can feel it more than hear it. If I open the window (engine off), I can clearly hear it coming from the engine compartment.
Mark R.
- - - - - - - - - -
2004 VW Golf TDI, type 1J, AHF, 317k (2016-current) --- daily
1990 VW Fox, type 16, HM, 304k (2005-current) --- spare runaround
Previous:
1992 Audi 500 SE, type C4, AAR (2001-2020) --- nice while it lasted
1983 VW Golf GTS, type 17, FR (1992-2005) --- most fun car I've ever had
1978 Audi 100 GLS 5E, type 43, WC (1991-92) --- died in the side of a Rekord who cut me off
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GremlinCCS
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by GremlinCCS »

Firstly. 213k are a wonderfull millage for the clutch. If it's time to replace then do it with a smile even though your wallet aren't going to smile. I think they are around R 4900 now for the full kit but if it last 200k that's not bad at all.

For the clack it could be a engine mounting. Look at the one specifically under the car, connecting the gearbox to the brace. That's the main mounting stopping the tilt on the motor when giving some torque. That were a clack on mine and might be yours.

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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by VAG Fan »

Somehow I doubt it's the engine mounts.

The "clack" doesn't happen as I engage or disengage the clutch, i.e. as I put torque on the mounts or release it. If I change the load on the engine, there is no noise from the mounts at all.

Rather, the "clack" happens "in the middle of no-where", under constant acceleration, as the engine spools through the revs. The mounts are already under torque. But I'll try to check the dog-bone anyway.

Re. clutch wear: Actually, I was hoping to get to 300k with the clutch. :wink: Our family is very sparing on clutches. :cool: We got 265k out of an Audi 100 (written off in an accident, but clutch was still fine), 270k out of a Mk1 GTS replacement clutch which is still running strong, and when I had my Audi 500 gearbox re-conned at 260k, the clutch plate still had about 40% left on its lining...
Mark R.
- - - - - - - - - -
2004 VW Golf TDI, type 1J, AHF, 317k (2016-current) --- daily
1990 VW Fox, type 16, HM, 304k (2005-current) --- spare runaround
Previous:
1992 Audi 500 SE, type C4, AAR (2001-2020) --- nice while it lasted
1983 VW Golf GTS, type 17, FR (1992-2005) --- most fun car I've ever had
1978 Audi 100 GLS 5E, type 43, WC (1991-92) --- died in the side of a Rekord who cut me off
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by panic-mechanic »

All I can say is you will KNOW when it has completely failed.
Until then put some money in a maxi save account. It's coming.
I have seen some spectacular failures in the last while. Most of them without any noise or warning beforehand.
One at about 100k km and the other had 300 and something k km on.
Unless You are the first owner you also don't know it's history so hard to predict.
Stephan van Tonder - Jhb - Putfontein Benoni
'05 Audi A6 3.0L TDI Avant
'09 Touareg 3l TDI
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'05 Touareg v10

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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by VAG Fan »

Stefan,

I've heard of these spectacular fails, and have seen some pictures of collateral damage, but I can't judge how destructive and pricey the "explosion" can be...

My line of questions is actually to gauge whether I should replace the DMF and clutch kit preemptively. In your opinion, does the price of the collateral damage warrant proactive replacement?

BTW,
First owner 2004-2008 was a Capetonian who drove lots of long distance, judging by the service log.
Second owner 2008-16 was my brother / sister-in-law, I think they bought it through Stellenbosch MasterCars university car pool; they treat their cars very well.
But I do agree, anything can happen at this stage. I'm just trying to make up my mind: wait and see, or be a wuss :oops: and get a new clutch now.
Mark R.
- - - - - - - - - -
2004 VW Golf TDI, type 1J, AHF, 317k (2016-current) --- daily
1990 VW Fox, type 16, HM, 304k (2005-current) --- spare runaround
Previous:
1992 Audi 500 SE, type C4, AAR (2001-2020) --- nice while it lasted
1983 VW Golf GTS, type 17, FR (1992-2005) --- most fun car I've ever had
1978 Audi 100 GLS 5E, type 43, WC (1991-92) --- died in the side of a Rekord who cut me off
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by VGTI »

The Polo's clutch is still the original that came from the factory and is at 305500km. Still feels like the day it came from the factory. The car has got a bit of a jerk on and off the throttle in 1st and 2nd but I think that could be the dog bone mount. Should get off my lazy ass and have a look.

Panic, do you have picture of any of these failures, would be interesting to see.
'04 Polo TDI 1661.9 km on 58.05l
'13 Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 Elite
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by VAG Fan »

Here's a nice example... (But I can't say whether all of them are this bad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgBmSH27iu0
Mark R.
- - - - - - - - - -
2004 VW Golf TDI, type 1J, AHF, 317k (2016-current) --- daily
1990 VW Fox, type 16, HM, 304k (2005-current) --- spare runaround
Previous:
1992 Audi 500 SE, type C4, AAR (2001-2020) --- nice while it lasted
1983 VW Golf GTS, type 17, FR (1992-2005) --- most fun car I've ever had
1978 Audi 100 GLS 5E, type 43, WC (1991-92) --- died in the side of a Rekord who cut me off
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by panic-mechanic »

In both cases there were no extra damage beyond changing flywheel and whole clutch assembly.
I have pictures somewhere on one of the phones. Will see if i remeber to post. The one actually moved the entire centre of the dmf outward so was shaking like crazy. It was so that I could not remove the bolts out of the flywheel.
Thankfully the kit came with new ones so maybe a more common happening than I think.
The one the clutch plate basically exploded. In that case I think it was more (bad) driver behaviour.
Stephan van Tonder - Jhb - Putfontein Benoni
'05 Audi A6 3.0L TDI Avant
'09 Touareg 3l TDI
'13 VW CC 2l tdi (repair project)
'05 Touareg v10

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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by VAG Fan »

panic-mechanic wrote:In both cases there were no extra damage beyond changing flywheel and whole clutch assembly.
This makes me hopeful that I can adopt a "wait and see" approach.
Mark R.
- - - - - - - - - -
2004 VW Golf TDI, type 1J, AHF, 317k (2016-current) --- daily
1990 VW Fox, type 16, HM, 304k (2005-current) --- spare runaround
Previous:
1992 Audi 500 SE, type C4, AAR (2001-2020) --- nice while it lasted
1983 VW Golf GTS, type 17, FR (1992-2005) --- most fun car I've ever had
1978 Audi 100 GLS 5E, type 43, WC (1991-92) --- died in the side of a Rekord who cut me off
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by Unobeat »

VGTI wrote:The Polo's clutch is still the original that came from the factory and is at 305500km. Still feels like the day it came from the factory. The car has got a bit of a jerk on and off the throttle in 1st and 2nd but I think that could be the dog bone mount. Should get off my lazy ass and have a look.

Panic, do you have picture of any of these failures, would be interesting to see.

Your car never cease to amaze me bro, it just keeps on going in its stock form. :hurray:
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by GremlinCCS »

Well can't say I ever had a clutch lasting more than 180k but then my driving style might be more aggressive. But I grew old and drive better now so will see what my caddy does.

Replace or not... Well I would drive till it leave me next to the road or slipping badly.

I think you need to choose if it breaks in two months can you stand next to the road and wait for help or not? As the worst are it leaves you stranded. If you can't bear that then it might be better to replace to be in the safe side.

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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by cmpelser »

My original clutch lasted for 470k!
1.4i citi Golf 2000.
1.9TDI Golf 4 2001.
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by Mlungupokl »

Howzit Guys,

My TDi is on 267K km now and the clutch is definitely on its way out.
She slips if I give her the beans and there's quite a lot of feedback on the pedal at pull-away.

Apparently, the DMF alone is about R7K?

Panic - there's a company here in Cape Town that claims they can refurb the DMF.
I have spoken with some of their clients and they say they're very happy, but I'm skeptical.
What's your opinion on this?
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by cmpelser »

I got mine (sachs) complete kit for R4.5k from goldwagen less than a year ago...
1.4i citi Golf 2000.
1.9TDI Golf 4 2001.
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by Mlungupokl »

cmpelser wrote:I got mine (sachs) complete kit for R4.5k from goldwagen less than a year ago...
Yeah, I got a cost on the flywheel alone for more than that.
I just phoned Goldwagen now. The SACHS kit is R4996 and the LUK kit is R6621.
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by VAG Fan »

Just to confirm, the "complete" kit includes the DMF plus all the clutch items, i.e. clutch plate, pressure plate, thrust bearing, seals? Or am I misunderstanding?

I travelled some long distance this weekend, and weirdly enough, the "clack" sound has now completely gone, even when switching off. :eek:
Mark R.
- - - - - - - - - -
2004 VW Golf TDI, type 1J, AHF, 317k (2016-current) --- daily
1990 VW Fox, type 16, HM, 304k (2005-current) --- spare runaround
Previous:
1992 Audi 500 SE, type C4, AAR (2001-2020) --- nice while it lasted
1983 VW Golf GTS, type 17, FR (1992-2005) --- most fun car I've ever had
1978 Audi 100 GLS 5E, type 43, WC (1991-92) --- died in the side of a Rekord who cut me off
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by panic-mechanic »

That kit is complete, includes dmf, friction and pressure plate, release bearing and even bolts.
Stephan van Tonder - Jhb - Putfontein Benoni
'05 Audi A6 3.0L TDI Avant
'09 Touareg 3l TDI
'13 VW CC 2l tdi (repair project)
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's no

Post by VAG Fan »

That's cool. I was expecting much worse...
Mark R.
- - - - - - - - - -
2004 VW Golf TDI, type 1J, AHF, 317k (2016-current) --- daily
1990 VW Fox, type 16, HM, 304k (2005-current) --- spare runaround
Previous:
1992 Audi 500 SE, type C4, AAR (2001-2020) --- nice while it lasted
1983 VW Golf GTS, type 17, FR (1992-2005) --- most fun car I've ever had
1978 Audi 100 GLS 5E, type 43, WC (1991-92) --- died in the side of a Rekord who cut me off
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's not?

Post by Clev »

Hey guys. I have a 2001 Jetta 1.9 TDI 81KW. My problems are similar to this post. Have a rumbling noise and engine shudder when car is at idle. When clutch is depressed, noise goes away. When clutch is released, the noise returns with engine shudder. I replaced all the mountings but didn't solve the problems. Asked around about this problem and the guys are coming up with release bearing. Seems correct as the drive itself is ok. Don't have problems shifting gears but the revs seem to be high for the speeds ( @2.5rpm /80-90kmph). Then at idle, engine shudders and the whole cabin vibrates with that grumbling noise. GW price on dmf clutch kit is R6230 in port Elizabeth. Any ideas on whether it is indeed necessary to replace the flywheel and clutch?
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's not?

Post by panic-mechanic »

Yup. Sounds like dmf failure. Attend it soonest as that thing might exit the gearbox if you leave it long enough.
Stephan van Tonder - Jhb - Putfontein Benoni
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's not?

Post by Clev »

panic-mechanic wrote:Yup. Sounds like dmf failure. Attend it soonest as that thing might exit the gearbox if you leave it long enough.
Dmf was indeed kaput. Clutch and pressure plate was fine. A bit worn, but fine. I replaced the engine with an import at 252000km. Engine didnt look or sound bad at all. Had everything on it. Clutch kit, turbo, aircon pump, diesel pump. Basically complete. Receny had a problem with reverse gear. The car just shifts into reverse but when I release the clutch slowly the car shudders as if stalling. All the foward gears work, just the reverse not so good. Theres a rumbling sound when I drive and noticeable vibration on the clutch and gear lever

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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's not?

Post by VAG Fan »

I also (had) replaced my clutch two weeks ago. Indeed, the clacking sound that I described earlier in this thread, was from the DMF.
Mark R.
- - - - - - - - - -
2004 VW Golf TDI, type 1J, AHF, 317k (2016-current) --- daily
1990 VW Fox, type 16, HM, 304k (2005-current) --- spare runaround
Previous:
1992 Audi 500 SE, type C4, AAR (2001-2020) --- nice while it lasted
1983 VW Golf GTS, type 17, FR (1992-2005) --- most fun car I've ever had
1978 Audi 100 GLS 5E, type 43, WC (1991-92) --- died in the side of a Rekord who cut me off
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Re: MK4 1.9 TDI dual mass flywheel: what's normal, what's not?

Post by Clev »

VAG Fan wrote:I also (had) replaced my clutch two weeks ago. Indeed, the clacking sound that I described earlier in this thread, was from the DMF.
So you reckon I need to replace the dmf on the new engine as well? The seller says the engine has done between 60000-80000km thats why I didnt think of changing it. It drove quite fine this whole time though

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